well thankyou to both of you for answering and john sorry to hear of family problems just thought it had been a little long and after all this is ask the president forum you could have said andy said it all or just some response. and Andy to you or john my exsperiance with alfalfa is on a new seeding dont short the N even tho it is a legume it needs it to get going even after it is a astaplished stand we put on 30 lbs in the spring when spraying herbcides on it makes  for better early growth and 4 cuttings turn to 5 for the year and  keep those p and k s up there with  the 6.8 ph we grow about 250 acres for your dairy heard on the new seedings we put about 80 p s of n at 40 cents thats 32$ well spent money for the price of seed now.